Opening the Doors of Perception:
Buddhism and the Mind:
An Interview with Mark Epstein
Psychotherapist and Buddhist writer
Mark Epstein talks about the Buddhist view of mind, the power of meditation, and
the processes of healing in both Buddhism and psychotherapy, in this exclusive
interview.
by Kate Prendergast
Mark Epstein is one of those rare people
schooled in the traditions of both East and West. A classically trained psychiatrist
from Harvard Medical School, Epstein is a psychotherapist in private practice
and Clinical Assistant Professor of Psychology at New York University. Epstein
has also studied in the Buddhist tradition and practiced meditation for over 20
years. He has written two thought-provoking and influential books on the relationship
between Western psychotherapy and Buddhist practice: Thoughts Without a Thinker,
and Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart. He is also a consulting editor to Tricycle:
The Buddhist Review. Here, Mark Epstein talks to Science & Spirit about the
Buddhist view of mind, the power of meditation, and the processes of healing in
both Buddhism and psychotherapy.
Science & Spirit: Buddhists talk a lot
about "the mind." What is the mind in Buddhism, and how is it different
or similar to the Western notion of mind?
Mark Epstein: Mind can be many different
things in Buddhism, the way Eskimos supposedly have 49 words for different kinds
of snow. Mind can be the thinking mind, the way we in the West think of the word,
or it can be consciousness, or it can be the Buddha Mind, which is the awakened
mind, that which realizes its own true nature. This awakened mind has certain
qualities in abundance, qualities like tolerance, patience and equanimity. We
tend to think of mind as involved with thinking, or as intelligence. In Buddhism,
mind has a greater scope and potential, especially in its awakened state.
S&S:
You describe Buddhism as a "depth psychology." Why?
Epstein: In general,
psychoanalysis and its derivatives are considered "depth psychologies"
because they go beneath the surface of the psyche, into the hidden conflicts that
drive behavior. In its own way, Buddhist psychology also seeks to go beneath the
surface of things. Its primary tool, like psychoanalysis, is awareness. Buddhism
stresses that much of our lives are lived unawares, and that by bringing attention
into the present, we can learn to release ourselves from selfish preoccupations.
Like psychoanalysis, Buddhism believes that it is essential to bring the attention
to everything there is to observe, without judging the material. This would include
feelings of anger, rage, shame, etc., that are traditionally considered to be
the stuff of depth psychology.
S&S: What is the "mandala of the neurotic
mind" in Buddhism?
Epstein: In Buddhism, the most popular "mandala"
is that of the Wheel of Life, a visual representation of the Six Realms of Existence,
traditionally the six realms into which a sentient being can reincarnate in its
endless succession of lives. The Six Realms are the Human, Animal, Hell, Heaven,
Hungry Ghost and Jealous God Realms. While some people take these realms literally,
it is also possible to work with them metaphorically, as metaphors for the different
states of mind through which we all pass in a given day. Hell realms are times
of emotional torment; Heaven realms are times of happiness. Hungry Ghost realms
are times of yearning or craving in which we feel like we can never be satisfied.
The trick, from a Buddhist perspective, is to learn how to be in each realm without
holding on and without pushing away, accepting things just as they are. This is
best learned in the Human realm, where we have the intelligence and the will to
attempt such things.
S&S: The idea of the "self" is also central
to Buddhism. What is the relationship between the mind and the self?
Epstein:
Self is central in Buddhism because the Buddha's main insight was into the transparency
of the self. Mind is capable of understanding the self's transparency. In Buddhism,
that is one of mind's chief functions. In Buddhism, "self" refers to
the belief in an inherently existing "I," the sense that we hold, deep
down, of our own separateness. It is this fundamental belief in an inherently
existing self that is the cause, in the Buddha's view, of so much attachment and
suffering.
S&S: What did the psychiatrist Harry Stack Sullivan mean when
he talked about the belief in a unique personal individuality as "the mother
of all illusions"?
Epstein: Harry Stack Sullivan was the founder of what
became known in America as the interpersonal school of psychotherapy. He believed
in the existence of relationships, but not of individuals. The British child analyst
D.W. Winnicott expressed much the same thing when he said that babies don't exist,
only baby-mother dyads. We exist in relationships, Sullivan realized, not as individuals.
S&S:
The Buddha advocated meditation as a way of realization: a method that "permits
us to traverse the waters of mind." What happens in meditation to allow this?
Epstein:
In meditation, after first learning how to concentrate the mind and conquer the
distractions of thought, greed, doubt and anxiety, the attention is directed to
the felt sense of "I." This belief in an inherently existing self becomes
the object of meditation. We have to find the self as it appears to us, personally.
In trying to locate this self, we start to appreciate its transparency. One of
the best times to find this sense of self is when someone has disappointed or
insulted us, which in Tibetan Buddhism is referred to as times of "injured
innocence," when we think to ourselves, "How could they do that to me?"
That "me" is the self that does not exist, but in order to understand
that it does not exist we first have to find our belief in it. Meditation is ultimately
a confrontation with that belief.
S&S: What do Buddhists mean by "taming
the mind"?
Epstein: Taming the mind means not being run by our reactions
to events. It means not acting, or reacting, impulsively. It means learning to
tolerate, or accept, the whole range of feelings. In the famous collection of
Buddhist verse called the Dhammapada, there is one stanza that reads: "Anger
gallops like a wild chariot. Hold it firm, steady it! Be the true charioteer."
This is the taming of the mind. But this same collection also says not to use
force, only to use "clear seeing" - "Force is not Dhamma, who uses
it not righteous. Only he is wise who sees clearly before acting."
S&S:
What is the relationship between the mind and body in Buddhism?
Epstein: In
Buddhist psychology and in the medical texts of Buddhist culture, mind and body
are not separate. Mind extends into body and body extends into mind. We can calm
one by calming the other. Much of meditation involves "coming to the senses,"
bringing the attention out of the head and into the rest of the body, where it
more naturally resides.
S&S: What are the problems associated with such
transcendental concepts as "universal mind"?
Epstein: What does universal
mind mean? The problem with the concept of a transcendental reality is that it
sets up a duality in which we are always other. This leads to a feeling of inferiority
and a tendency to disparage one aspect or another of our experience. Buddhists
prefer the idea of "no mind" to that of a universal one.
S&S:
As a practising psychotherapist and Buddhist, what is the value of therapy, and
of Buddhism? Are they related?
Epstein: Both therapy and meditation use awareness
as a healing force. Psychotherapy also makes exquisite use of the interpersonal
relationship to reveal how a person holds himself back from the "here and
now." In this way, therapy can be like a two-person meditation, in which
the therapist's attention exposes the gaps in the patient's awareness.
S&S:
What difficulties are there for Westerners in seeking to practice Buddhism?
Epstein:
Some Westerners, like Carl Jung for example, thought that Westerners could never
shed enough of their cultural baggage to understand Buddhism. He thought that
Westerners should work only within their own spiritual systems. I never found
this kind of a problem with Buddhism; it made sense to me from the beginning.
I have found that some Westerners have difficulty practicing meditation because
they are, in some way, trying to do therapy on themselves while meditating. They
try to go deeply into their problems, searching for cathartic experiences or childhood
memories, rather than simply noting their experience as meditation counsels. Such
people are better off in a traditional psychotherapy on the side.
S&S:
Buddhist practitioners talk about the states of terror and delight in advanced
stages of meditation. What are these states? Do they too, eventually pass?
Epstein:
As meditation progresses and deepens, the emotional states get subtler and yet
more intense. States of bliss or joy, traditionally known as states of "delight,"
become more available and more pronounced. But states of terror, in which the
self that was taken to be so real suddenly appears empty, also become strong.
For a time, the meditator may feel more stressed, like the bottom is falling out.
These states, like all things, eventually pass, but they require the meditator
to stay present without pushing away and without holding on. They yield to a profound
tranquility and equanimity.
S&S: What are the doors that Buddhism is seeking
to open?
Epstein: Aldous Huxley coined the phrase "the doors of perception."
These are the doors that Buddhism is seeking to open: the five sense doors and
also the mind door, making us more alive to our own reality. The hardest door
to open is the "personality" door. We think we know who we are, even
if deep down we are not so sure. Buddhism keeps pressing on this belief, pushing
us more and more into the unknown, into a state where we are not defined by who
we think we are. There is the idea here of opening into a new reality, instead
of being conditioned by an old one. Psychotherapy has tended to dwell on the past,
on how this has conditioned who we are, while Buddhism seeks to free us from that
conditioning by orienting us more towards becoming.
Kate Prendergast is Senior
Writer for Science & Spirit.