Behind the Scenes with Venerable
Thubten Chodron
This interview was conducted by Norman New in November
2001 when Venerable Thubten Chodron was invited to Singapore to give a series
of talks and seminars. Ven. Chodron is familiar to many Buddhists in Singapore
because she was a resident teacher with Amitabha Buddhist Centre back in 1987-1988.
She was also a frequent speaker at NUS Buddhist Society back then. Ven. Chodron
is currently involved in setting up Sravasti Abbey at Liberation Park in America.
We wish Venerable all the best in her current and future endeavours and may she
benefit more and more sentient beings through the teachings of the Buddha.
Part 1 : From an American teacher to being a Tibetan nun
First Encounter
with Buddhism
Q: Venerable, can you tell me briefly about your first encounter
with Buddhism?
A: In 1973, I went to Nepal as a tourist and saw many beautiful
Buddhist artefacts. I got some, not because of any good motivation, but in order
to have beautiful things from a foreign country. But clearly there was some attraction
there. I didn't actually receive teachings until 1975 when I went to a course
taught by Lama Yeshe and Zopa Rinpoche in California.
Attraction to Buddhism
Q:
You were ordained in 1977 and you have been a nun for 25 years now. What was it
that attracted you to Buddhism?
A: Buddhism's worldview made sense to me. It
talks about rebirth and karma, the mind-stream, and the possibility for enlightenment.
The Four Noble Truths explains why we're alive and gives us a purpose and positive
goals in life. The fact that the Buddha said the cause of suffering was in our
mind, not something external, meant I could change my experience by transforming
my mind. The Buddha explained practical methods to do this, and when I tried them,
they worked.
Renunciation to be a nun
Q: What was it that made you renounce
your worldly life and become a nun?
A: First, I wanted to dedicate my life
to Buddhist study and practice. I thought that being a nun would be the best way
to do this because it cleared away a lot of distracting activities and obstacles.
Secondly, I wanted to become clear on my ethical discipline. Sometimes what I
said and what I did didn't match, and I knew that I needed to be more consistent
in how I acted. Taking vows was a way for me to be more consistent. If I said
I was going to do something in the presence of the Three Jewels (Buddha, Dharma,
Sangha), then I was going to do it.
Choosing the Tibetan tradition
Q: Why,
among all the Buddhist traditions, did you choose the Tibetan tradition?
A:
I didn't choose it. When I started, I didn't know there were different kinds of
Buddhism. I went to the course taught by Lama Yeshe and Zopa Rinpoche, and what
they taught was interesting so I went back. As I continued to learn, what they
said was more and more interesting to me, so I kept going. I kept returning because
the Dharma helped me. I didn't go to temples of all the different Buddhist traditions
and then select the one I liked the best. All I knew was I met these teachers
and what they said helped me so I kept going back. That is what I mean by, "I
didn't choose the Tibetan tradition."
Part 2 : Buddhism now and then
Buddhism
today
Q: There are so many Buddhist traditions to choose from these days. Do
you think it is good for people to learn about all of them?
A: Depending on
the individual, some people benefit from exploring different centres and meditation
techniques or listening to teachings from a variety of teachers before they find
what's suitable for them. But for some people, because of their mental state,
doing that become like spiritual consumerism. I'll consume this tradition for
a while and then try that one for a while. It's like going to the ice-cream store
and trying a new flavour each time. But then we never really settle on anything
or go in depth. Being a spiritual tourist isn't helpful if we want to progress
on the path.
On the other hand, after we are stable in our practice, it can
be helpful to hear teachings from other Buddhist traditions. Since all the teachings
come from our Teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha, hearing them will benefit us.
Spiritual
materialism
Q: As you know, spiritual materialism is on the rise. Do you think
it's better for beginners to hop around and try out different teachers and traditions
before sticking to one?
A. If a variety of Buddhist approaches is available,
people can select what suits them best. Those who need to go to many different
centres before they decide can do that. But for some people like me, we start
off in one tradition and stick with it. What we want to avoid is a dissatisfied
mind that thinks, "Maybe I'll find a better form of Buddhism on the next
block. Or I'll find a better teacher over here." Then we never really practise
because our mind is too consumed looking for the best product. But Dharma isn't
a consumer product.
Part 3 : Fascination of the West with Tibetan Buddhism
Buddhism
as a fashion
Q: I noticed that in the West, Buddhism is like a fashion. Theravada
Buddhism was in vogue for a period of time, followed by Zen, and now it is the
turn of Tibetan Buddhism. There is a current fascination in the West with anything
Tibetan, like the Dalai Lama. What is your view on that?
A: When Dharma becomes
a fad, then people are simply dabbling in exotica. Spiritual practice is not about
popularity or fascination with what is new or mystical. Such interest doesn't
last long and doesn't indicate a serious change in a culture because soon people
will want something else that's new and exciting. A hundred people or a thousand
people coming to listen to a talk because they think the speaker is exotic does
not mean they will become Buddhists. Of course hearing a Dharma talk puts good
imprints in their minds that will ripen in future lives. In addition, they hear
things that could help them live their lives better now. But most people attending
large public events - especially people dabbling in exotica - will not become
solid Buddhist practitioners in this lifetime. However, from Dharma being publicly
available like that, everyone gets accurate information on Buddhism, and in addition,
some people who later become serious practitioners have the chance to meet the
Dharma.
Hollywood's obsession with the Dalai Lama
Q: His Holiness the Dalai
Lama is becoming quite a cultural icon among Hollywood stars like Richard Gere
and Sharon Stone. Do you think it's a legitimate way to spread the Dharma?
A:
His Holiness is not deliberately trying to become popular in Hollywood. In his
mind he doesn't care whether Hollywood stars come or not. He doesn't care if lots
of people come to Buddhist events or not. Worldly fame is not at all interesting
to His Holiness. He's a sincere Buddhist practitioner and is not trying to become
an icon. As for the Hollywood stars, some, for example Richard Gere, are sincere
practitioners. I have observed him listening earnestly at teachings, and he has
done retreats. I've seen him in action, and he practises. I haven't met the other
people so I can't comment. Those who are genuine practitioners, definitely benefit
from the Dharma on an individual level. If they want to use their fame to promote
the Dharma, that can be helpful.
Part 4 : Buddhism and Society
Engaged
Buddhism
Q: What are your views on engaged Buddhism?
A: I think engaged
Buddhism is very important and beneficial. It's up to each individual to choose
how they practise. In other words, we shouldn't say retreat is the ideal way for
everybody, or study is the ideal way for everybody, or engaged Buddhism is the
ideal way for everybody. Because people have different inclinations and dispositions,
people will distribute themselves between these three things in different ways.
We have to respect and appreciate that. I do prison work myself. After the attacks
on September 11, our Dharma group put a full-page ad in the Seattle newspaper
saying that we want a non-violent response. Right away we did something that was
socially engaged.
The Middle Way
Q: It's not easy practising the Dharma
(the Buddha's teachings) and being engaged in society at the same time. Do you
think it's possible to strike a balance between the two?
A: Yes. When one is
active in engaged Buddhism, it's important to keep one's Dharma practice very
strong. Otherwise our motivation and attitudes may begin to change. We could start
thinking, "My political position, my social position, or my ecological position
is the one and only right way, and yours is wrong." It's easy to make people
with other viewpoints into enemies, and that way of thinking isn't very productive.
That's why it's important for people who do activist work to have a solid meditation
practice.
At Sravasti Abbey at Liberation Park, the monastery I am co-founding,
we want to be socially engaged in a balanced way. Santikaro Bhikkhu, the other
co-founder, is active in engaged Buddhism. We want to provide a place where engaged
Buddhists can come and really get into their meditation practice. That will enable
their motivation to continue to be one of compassion. Then, when they go out and
start applying Buddhist principles to social welfare issues, they'll do it in
a healthy way.
Part 5 : Buddhism and Terrorism
Response to terrorist
attack
Q: After the Sept 11 terrorist attack, America retaliated. Do you agree
with President Bush's stance on this? What do you think is the best solution?
A:
No, I don't agree with President Bush's position. I'm not a politician, and I
don't envy his position and his responsibility. The karmic weight he carries with
him is tremendous. I always favour non-violent responses because violence just
creates more resentment and antagonism. On the other hand, we can't just grin
and say, "We have love and compassion so what you did is alright. It's no
problem you killed six thousand people. We forgive you." That's stupid. There
needs to be some way in which the perpetrators are apprehended and imprisoned
in order to prevent them from harming others and creating more negative karma
themselves. As to the exact diplomatic, political, economic, military way to capture
people rather than kill them, I am not an expert in that.
The "island
mentality"
Q: Many people in Singapore are more concerned about their
own rice bowls than the bombing in Afghanistan. How do you think we can change
people's mentality with regards to that?
A: People need to consider and to
train their minds in the awareness that all sentient beings want happiness, and
don't want suffering. This doesn't mean just our families want to be happy and
not suffer or just Singaporeans want to be well and happy. Everyone does. That
includes people with whom we disagree, people of different races, nationalities,
and religions, and even sentient beings in other realms of existence.
Because
Singapore is a very small place, an island, it's easy for Singaporeans to have
what's called an "island mentality." This means that as long as you
are on the island, the rest of the world almost ceases to exist in your mind.
Whatever isn't on this island, is faraway. We need to broaden our mind and see
that the rest of the world does exist. So many people experience suffering, even
as I live my very comfortable life here. For the benefit of our planet, we must
develop an awareness that people are exactly like us, wanting to be happy, wanting
to be free of suffering. We need to recognize that other sentient beings have
been tremendously kind to us and that our very life depends on them. When we see
this truth, we will automatically want their rice bowl to be filled. We won't
be stuck in self-centeredness, thinking about just our own rice bowl. We will
care about what happens to others instead of just caring about ourselves and our
own family. So, these meditations on love and compassion are important.
Part
6: Buddhism in the 21st century
Relevance of Buddhism
Q: How relevant do
you think Buddhism will be in the 21st century?
A: Very relevant I hope. The
Buddhist teachings go beyond time. Why? Because they address the human mind and
how it works. Although our cultural, economical and political situations are different
from those at the time of the Buddha, the basic human mind is the same, so the
teachings are applicable.
Getting reborn
Q: Looking at the world at this
moment in time, I really don't know what to expect when I get reborn again.
A:
I was thinking about that the other day. We pray for a human rebirth, and I was
thinking, "Where would I pray to be reborn right now? Will I be assured of
a good opportunity to practise Dharma?" It's difficult isn't it? Most of
the traditional Buddhist societies are in upheaval, and the places where Buddhism
is now spreading are also in upheaval. So it's hard to know where we would pray
to be reborn - maybe we just have to go to the pureland! There are also other
human realms, or we could get enlightened in this lifetime. Sometimes I look at
little kids and think, "What are their lives going to be like when they are
my age? How are they going to be able to practise the Dharma? What's the world
going to be like for them?"
Setting up an abbey in America
Q: You
are beginning a monastery in the USA called Sravasti Abbey at Liberation Park.
What is the motive for setting up the Abbey?
A: In the Tibetan tradition in
America, there is not one place where people who are interested in training as
a monastic can go and prepare for ordination and receive proper monastic training.
There are Dharma centres, but they are designed for lay practitioners, even though
some monastics may live there. Those monastics work at the Dharma centres but
they don't get training on how to be a monastic. It's crucial for the existence
of Dharma in a country that there be a sangha (community of monks and nuns). As
the Buddha said, "The Dharma exists in a place where the sangha community
exists." There has to be a stable sangha community in a country for Buddhism
to flourish in that place, and the sangha is not firmly established in America
at this point. I want to contribute towards that happening so that people can
receive proper training, understand the ordination and precepts properly, and
live a monastic...